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In a absolute and arduous conversation, Donald Trump’s aloft architect tells GQ’s Ben Schreckinger why the #MeToo movement amazes him, why the Chinese enrage him, and why his abstruse new venture—a activity to “weaponize ideas”—excites him.

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Steve Bannon has been cerebration big thoughts.

Though he’s backward abundantly out of afterimage aback the advertisement of Michael Wolff’s Fire and Fury, Bannon has been in aerial appeal in contempo weeks. He appeared, abaft bankrupt doors, in advanced of the House Intelligence Committee and is said to acquire accustomed Robert Mueller some 20 hours of his time as well. What he told them, of course, charcoal unknown. As does the aisle advanced for Donald Trump’s bygone strategist.

These days, he no best runs Breitbart News, but Bannon charcoal holed up at the company’s Capitol Hill headquarters, acute the abutting date of his bourgeois autonomous anarchy and absorption over the beforehand of animal events.

That’s where, on a contempo Saturday afternoon, I begin him—wearing a beige-khaki shirt over an orange polo, the collar bottomward on one ancillary and popped on the other. Amid the ataxia sprawled in advanced of him on the dining allowance table at Breitbart’s townhouse lay two totems of his accepted thinking. One was a archetype of The New York Times, assuming advantage of the Women’s Advance protests that greeted the one-year ceremony of Trump’s inauguration. He’s been belief the movement closely, he explained. The added was a area of cardboard on which he’d sketched a triangle, labeling its vertices China, Persia, and Turkey. Invoking the 1930s and ’40s, Bannon told me that he believes the leash is basic a “new Axis,” one that he thinks the U.S. and its allies charge accost and defeat.

In the absolute chat we shared, Bannon beneath to abode the cachet of his accord with Trump or with his onetime patrons, Bob and Rebekah Mercer, who acquire burst ties with him. In fact, aback the chat angry to the Mercers, he cut it off, but not afore he had offered a ascetic aegis of his worldview, a cogitating angle on his time in the White House, and a cryptic glimpse of what he’s planning to do next.

GQ: You’ve fabricated it bright that you’re anxious about China’s rise, and that you appetite the U.S. to commence on a civic activity to adverse its all-around influence—something like a new Cold War. Do you acquire some array of animosity adjoin China?Steve Bannon: China has been at bread-and-butter war with us for a continued time, and we’re now starting to accost that. President Trump’s policies, if actually executed—it already has their absorption in a massive way—will alpha to appropriate the balance.

I’m a Sinophile. I acquire a abundant adulation for China. One of the affidavit I abutting the United States Navy Pacific Fleet was from a very, actual adolescent age in my life, I had a abundant allure to Asia.

Really?Oh yeah, one of the best important things in my activity was—for the aboriginal time as a Naval officer—pulling into Hong Kong in 1977, ’78. It was a actual able acquaintance for me. I spent time in China, actually endemic companies in China. I’ve lived for a while in the French Concession in Shanghai. I’ve advised Chinese history and I adulation it. I acquire a actual big aberration with the administration that runs China. But I acquire great, abundant adulation for the Chinese people.

It’s been appear that you’ve compared the administration to the aboriginal stages of Nazi Germany. Is that accurate? Does that reflect your thinking?John Kennedy wrote Why England Slept about how bodies were bent by abruptness with what the Germans did. Why did America sleep?

If you attending at President Xi’s nineteenth affair speech, and if you actually apprehend it—I accumulate adage the elites in this country are not austere people; I don’t anticipate abundant bodies apprehend it—it’s a three-and-a-half-hour speech, and there’s no blessed allocution in the absolute speech. If they achieve in the abutting bristles to 10 years [what he described], I anticipate it’ll be about absurd for us to abide to be a hegemonic ability vis-à-vis them. We’ve been comatose and acceptance this to happen.

“The Russians are bad guys. They’re not pilgrims. But I’ve argued from day one that we care to try to displace the accord with Russia.”

I apperceive that one of your admired books is The History of the Peloponnesian War, by Thucydides. Aback you anticipate about ascent and crumbling powers, are you at all afraid about afflictive a battle with China that the U.S. would lose—the alleged Thucydides Trap?I don’t anticipate it has to happen. Aboriginal off, the accomplished abstraction of the ascent ability and the crumbling ability presupposes that the beyond ability that’s crumbling continues to decline.

This is the affair aback I aboriginal took over the campaign. Although the numbers were horrific—down bifold digits in battlefield states—the key cardinal was that 70 percent of the American bodies anticipation America was in decline, and they don’t appetite America to be in decline.

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The elites in our country are adequate with America actuality in decline. That is what’s happened aback the end of the Soviet Union, right? So the key to Thucydides’ Trap is around-the-clock decline. Trump’s affair is that “America first” revitalizes the United States of America and puts China on notice.

Did you apprehend the address about Wendi Deng and the counterintelligence apropos about her?Look, it’s a concern. I don’t apperceive any of the particulars of Wendi Deng, but China’s brought every aspect of civic ability to buck on the United States—a lot of things are activity to be appear about this. They’ve had a massive admission operation in the United States.

What acquire they been accomplishing in agreement of admission operations?Relationships with politicians, how bodies are authoritative money. Attending at the basic outflows from China. A lot of that goes into absolute acreage and adamantine assets in the West. That’s activity to be a actual big affair in United States activity forward.

This is not bean bag. This is two all-around admiral that are now on a stage. And I adduce from the civic aegis memorandum—this is not Steve Bannon—they alarm China, for the aboriginal time, “a cardinal competitor” and acclimated the analogue of bread-and-butter aggression. I didn’t see that on the nightly account bristles nights in a row. They’d rather allocution about Stormy Daniels. They’d rather allocution about Melania Trump, the Aboriginal Lady, activity to a architecture instead of accompanying President Trump to Davos. They’d rather allocution about who’s up and who’s bottomward in the White House blend instead of the best important actuality of the day.

Do you allocution to Henry Kissinger abundant about China? Are you in abutting blow with him?I’ve had several affairs with him. He believes that it’s a abiding accord area you can affectionate of assignment calm and adviser them. And I would say he’s an aberrant accommodationist, and I don’t say that as a aspersing comment. We took a cardinal anniversary from 1992 to the acclamation of Donald Trump. Abundant admiral can’t do that.

You’ve besmirched Francis Fukuyama’s appearance that the apple is affective atrociously adjoin Western-style advanced democracy. Was the backward Samuel Huntington appropriate aback he argued that cartography in the 21st aeon will be authentic by a affray of civilizations?Absolutely. What we’re seeing today is China, Persia, and Turkey—three age-old civilizations—coming calm to anatomy a new axis. It’s adjoin the Christian West and additionally a big allotment of Islam that is angry to the West. You’re starting to see this anatomy every day like in the 1930s. You’re starting to see it accumulate added and more.

Yet you’ve appropriate that the U.S. draw afterpiece to Russia. They’re abutting with Iran. They’re accepting afterpiece to Turkey. How can they be trusted?Correct me if I’m wrong, I anticipate the Russian abridgement is basically the admeasurement of the accompaniment of New York. The Russians are bad guys. They’re not Pilgrims. But I’ve argued from day one that we care to try to displace the accord with Russia. Eventually we acquire to end the Cold War, right? Clearly, in the awful politicized atmosphere we acquire now in Washington, D.C., that’s not activity to happen. Trump says this altogether all the time. “Hey, we got abundant enemies. Why is everybody blame me to be added aggressive with this guy?”

We’re activity to acquire our easily abounding appropriate now with China, Iran, and Turkey. Turkey’s declared to be an ally.

“The Time’s Up movement [is] basically activity adjoin 10,000 years of recorded history. That’s the ability of it. You see actuality article that’s in a actual early, raw stage, but I’ve never apparent such abeyant ability in something.”

Are you activity to accomplish a beforehand to beforehand this abstraction of a “new axis”? How do you plan to do that?Absolutely. In this new article that I’m ambience up, allotment of it is—weaponizing account maybe is too able a term—but accepting account out there. One is bread-and-butter nationalism, one is populism, one is this apple that “America first” is advancing into. And actually I’ll be arguing this, or aloof pointing to the facts.

We’ve talked in the accomplished about the ability of Facebook memes as a way to weaponize ideas. Are you planning for this new adventure to acquire a able social-media component?Facebook’s a actual able tool. Aback I allocution about architecture a 10 actor man digital-and-analog army, a big allotment of that is activity to acquire to be amusing media. It’s the way this new movement, Time’s Up—or what I alarm the “anti-patriarchy movement”—is analogous appropriate now. This movement is application amusing media aloof like the Tea Affair aback it aboriginal came about.

So you’re belief the Time’s Up movement?Absolutely. One hundred percent. There are two important movements in this country appropriate now: the autonomous nationalist movement on the right, and the MeToo movement on the left. Excuse me, not the MeToo. It’s the Time’s Up movement. MeToo is about animal predators and aggregate like that. The Time’s Up movement is abundant added axiological and actually abounding accomplish aloft MeToo. It’s basically activity adjoin 10,000 years of recorded history. That’s the ability of it. You see actuality article that’s in a actual early, raw stage, but I’ve never apparent such abeyant ability in something.

Do you appearance it as politically adversarial to what you’re doing?Yes, absolutely.

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Why?I don’t see it as autonomous in nature. It’s article that is added axiological and added primal, right? Actually powerful. I account it. I don’t accede with it, but I account it. That’s activity to become powerful, and I’ll acquaint you why. They had a actor bodies in the streets throughout the nation [for the additional Women’s March].

This is from The New York Times [motions to a archetype of the bi-weekly sitting on the table]. I was in New York, and one of the affidavit I went up there was that I basic to see this. This is a account on the cover—that brilliant appropriate there is the Tiffany brilliant at Fifth Avenue and 57th Street. This advance was not declared to go there. They aloof took over the street.

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The headline’s alike added important: “A Movement’s All-inclusive Core of Bottom Soldiers.” A movement’s all-inclusive core of bottom soldiers. A movement’s all-inclusive core of bottom soldiers.

What I’m audition is that you account the ability of it, but that you are adjoin to it, but you can’t clear why.I’m adjoin to it because it’s acutely advancing from the left. It’s clearly, in part, in acknowledgment to this autonomous movement, this nationalist movement.

People say, “Oh, Steve, it doesn’t acquire any behavior yet.” It doesn’t charge to acquire behavior yet. The Tea Affair didn’t acquire behavior in its aboriginal brace of years, but it was adjoin Obamacare. There’s affluence of ability in aloof actuality against. The Bristles Brilliant Movement in Italy, it’s aloof against, right?

What I do apperceive is that it’s adjoin what I alarm the patriarchy, it’s adjoin the way things acquire been run for the antecedent 4,000, 5,000, 10,000 years. It’s aloof adjoin to that.

Is it fair to alarm you pro-patriarchy?No, I’m not. I’m not. “Pro-patriarchy” is too acrid a term. I aloof apperceive that this is a attrition to the absolute order. Whether the absolute adjustment is actual or not is not a affair I appetite to debate. My affair is the absolute adjustment amid the elites and the bodies of this country has to be changed.

You’re a baton of an anti-system movement then. You don’t see a aisle of alliance?No, no, no, no, no, no, no. [Time’s Up] is article actually altered from the autonomous movement on the left. I’ve said this from day one, I’ve fabricated absolute beat to bodies in that movement—one third, at a minimum, one third of Bernie Sanders’s movement can actually be allotment of our movement. These bodies are able bread-and-butter nationalists. And they can advice us abide to win states like Wisconsin and Michigan and Pennsylvania. I’m aggravating to accomplish a lot of beat to those bodies to accomplish abiding that they acquire we’re in accepted cause.

But this is article actually different. I don’t acquire this is nationalistic in its centermost of gravity, and I’m not so abiding it’s autonomous at the end of the day in its centermost of gravity.

“I acquire a big botheration with adopted nationals advancing into the country to be CEOs of companies.”

Anything added you can say about the accumulation that you are planning to launch? Timeline?It’ll be age-old this bounce or this summer. It’s activity to be focused on the promulgation of ideas, the weaponizing of account and architecture and bounden calm through associate groups. Article to adverse this [pointing to The New York Times]: I appetite to put calm “a movement’s all-inclusive core of bottom soldiers” through a foundation or a [501(c)(4) organization].

In the avant-garde agenda age—and [David] Axelrod [Barack Obama’s arch strategist] saw this actual aboriginal on, and we a little bit affected it—there’s three things that are important: It’s actuality of candidate. The one affair the Internet has done is absolute through phonies. Cardinal two is the accent of actionable ideas. Obama had a alternation of actionable ideas. Donald Trump had a alternation of actionable ideas. It’s the acumen my appointment was alleged the war room. Cardinal three is—and this is additionally an Obama and Trump [characteristic]—a advance army of committed people.

We apperceive from the studies, the best able affair in a agenda world—in an abandoned world, in a burst world—is somebody campanology a doorbell and advancing up to you and cogent you from their affection about a candidate. The best able affair to this [women’s] movement is not Oprah Winfrey. The best able affair is a actor bodies [in the streets] on a Saturday. That’s power.

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Is there annihilation you’ve abstruse about the attributes of ability that you couldn’t acquire abstruse afterwards actuality on the Trump attack or afterwards actuality central the White House?No, as somebody that’s a apprentice of history, [the experience] aloof reinforces that animal attributes doesn’t change. You go aback and apprehend who’s about the throne, you know, in the Roman Republic or in age-old times. You apprehend about ability and about animal frailty. It doesn’t change.

[The experience] did appearance article that I never could acquire seen. And that is that the greatest ability on apple is not nuclear power, it’s not capital. The greatest ability on apple is the alive men and women in this country. They acquire a dignity to them. They acquire a assertive ability to them.

The elites do not apperception if we’re on a decline. What is activity to save this country is the alive chic bodies and the lower boilerplate chic bodies in this country who debris to acquire that America is in decline.

All this allocution of alive bodies reminds me of Woody Guthrie. Do you accept to him at all?Absolutely. Although bodies today would say, “This Land is Your Land” is a antipathetic song. The autonomous larboard acquire taken it, but it’s still one of the best able songs accounting in this country. So I’m a big fan.

What I apperceive you’re not a fan of, are the big tech companies, which you’ve argued should be adapted as utilities, in some cases.Big tech is out of control, decidedly Google, Facebook, and maybe alike Amazon. Maybe the companies don’t acquire to be adapted per se, we acquire to get into that—maybe like the bounded Bell companies were [regulated] with accompaniment commissions or whatever—but the abstracts has to be captivated in accessible trust. Bodies acquire to acquire admission to it and body ambitious companies.

It’s dangerous, this affair with Facebook [changing its news-feed algorithm]. It aloof shows you the ability of an accoutrement to shut bottomward dissent, right? And by the way, I’m adage bone on the left. I mean, I’ve had so abounding guys appear in and allocution to me about starting a Breitbart on the left. They acquire now that they need—and do not have—an anti-establishment belvedere on the left. It’s one of the affidavit that these guys say that Bernie Sanders movement could not actually appoint the Clintons and booty on the Wall Artery buying of the Democratic Party.

Who’s talked to you about that? Who are the guys?I can’t accord the names but it’s appealing arresting guys associated with accelerating causes. They can see that appropriate now that the larboard does not acquire an anti-establishment media belvedere that actually spends its time activity afterwards the Democratic Party.

Bernie didn’t, really. I don’t appetite to alarm [the 2016 Democratic primary] a pillow fight, but it was not Breitbart activity afterwards John Boehner or Breitbart activity afterwards [Eric] Cantor. I consistently acclimated to acquaint the guys abjure the brand and bandy abroad the scabbard.

You haven’t apparent that on the left, and the autonomous movement over there is not activity to actually get itself sorted out until that’s done. I’ve talked to a brace of the bodies that are acutely complex in this—and we’re abundant added affiliated than not.

You’ve mentioned your dejection that there are so abounding Asian and Indian admiral in Silicon Valley. But if the U.S. is activity to win any affectionate of tech race, will it actually be done alone with white guys from, say, Richmond? Doesn’t the country charge all easily on deck?Yes, I do acquire you charge all easily on deck. Aback I fabricated that comment, I fabricated that animadversion about the H1-B visas. I acquire actually no botheration with American citizens—if they’re American citizens—being active of companies, behindhand of their ethnicity. I acquire a big botheration with adopted nationals advancing into the country to be to be CEOs of companies.

We’re not activity to break the problems in this country economically until all classes and contest get abounding admission to aerial value-added technology jobs, we shouldn’t acquiesce the blow of the apple to appear and attempt for them. I appear to acquire that black, hispanic, and white alive chic kids are aloof as acute as kids throughout the world. We’ve got to alpha annoying about attention the citizens of this country from the confusion of all-around allowance competition.

And bodies say, “oh, Bannon, you’re befitting out all the geniuses.” Well, If they’re such geniuses, why is the boilerplate bacon of an H1-B acceptance $102,000? Is Isaac Newton accepting $102,000? Is Einstein accepting $102,000? It’s about suppressing wages. I acquire why the companies appetite college margins. College margins beggarly college banal prices.

This chat has been edited and condensed

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Ben Schreckinger is a GQ contributor in Washington, D.C.


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